Usually I'm the one asking all the questions around here on interviews, but today is a little different. I was interviewed by 14-year-old Emily. She's a lacrosse player, and she was doing a project for school and wanted to talk to an expert around mental training and just the dynamic of youth sports right now. So, I said, "Yes, let's do that." Emily interviewed and asked so many great questions. It honestly has turned into one of those genuine conversations I've had around why we do what we do, the importance of mental skills, and how coaches and parents can help athletes with this side of the game. So, if you're a parent listening, you get to hear directly from Emily. We actually flip the script a little bit where she's asking me, I'm asking her. She is going through our mental training program, The Elite Mental Game, as well, so you get to hear kind of how that has impacted her in her sports. Coaches, this is gonna be important because you'll hear exactly why just spending a little bit of time on the mental side of the game impacts athletes so much. You'll hear it directly from Emily on how this has impacted her sports. And then athletes that are listening as well, what better way to understand just how this works than hearing it from an athlete just like you? I do believe that a lot of what Emily talks about is going to mirror your own experience. So this is one that really can appeal to everybody, and I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I enjoyed being interviewed by Emily. What led up to and why did you create The Elite Mental Game and The Elite Competitor? Question to kick us off. Uh, honestly, it started, the whole, my, my, my whole journey started as an athlete myself. So I played many sports growing up, and when I got into high school, volleyball ended up being the one that I kind of clung to the most and found, found some success in, so I just kept going with it. Plus, I tried a lot of other sports, and I didn't like basketball 'cause it was like people were in my face. Volleyball, you get this really nice net between you and your opponents. I'm like, "All right, I could do this." And then I started training a lot. I was playing eventually year-round, playing club, you know- Yeah in the weight room, and then I was getting recruited, so I started kind of going through the process of what it would look like to play at the next level. Yeah. And it was exciting, but also- filled with a lot of pressure for me. So I was- Yeah struggling with perfectionism, which I know a lot of our girls in our program struggle with. Nothing ever was good enough, so even if I would have a good game, I really wouldn't feel good about it 'cause I would be worried about the things that went wrong. I was putting pressure on myself to, you know, not make mistakes, but that's kind of impossible, especially in a sport like volleyball. You're gonna fail. And I just- Yeah would put all this expectation on myself that, you know, I can't do that or I'm letting people down, and I just, I didn't like that feeling. So, and I didn't have- people weren't talking about the mental game or anything like this when I was in high school. And so- Yeah I ended up actually quitting after my senior season. So instead of- Oh, wow going to play in college, I turned everything down and was like, "I'm just gonna go to college to be a student." And I told everybody I was kind of burned out. Everyone was really surprised because they were like, "Well, you're so talented and you obviously are, like, very successful and colleges want you." But I just felt like I would rather disappoint people- It was too much now and, and then, versus go on and, you know, play and not be as good as people thought I c- would be. So that, I mean, it's import- that story's important because I ended up going to college and the t- the college that I went to had a really good volleyball team. They were division two. They made it to the national championship that, my freshman year. I was like, I went to every one of their games. No way. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I miss this sport so much. I could be doing this. I could be playing on this team." Yes. You know, but I'm not. I'm watching, and I really regret my decision to quit. And so I actually reached out to the coach and just to s- tell her my story and is there any opportunity, and she did email me back and had me come and practice with the team when they got back from the national championship that winter. Oh, wow. And after my, after I did that, she- called me into her office and she offered me a walk-on spot on the team. And a walk-on means you don't get paid or anything, you're just part of the team. And, but I was like, "I don't care. I'm just happy to be playing again." And- You just wanna play. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, "I just wanna be..." And it was on my own terms, so it felt different. But this coach was awesome. She didn't just teach the physical part of sports. She would bring in other experts like sports psychologists and mental performance coach, like all just different ways to help her athletes perform, because she knew that it wasn't just about the physical. Yeah. So I started learning some of these skills. I realized I wasn't alone. That it's normal as an athlete, especially a high performer, high achiever, to put pressure on yourself, ways to deal with it. By the time I was a senior, she, this coach called me back into her office and was like, "We wanna actually offer you a full ride for your senior season." And I wasn't the starting lineup. I ended really well and I realized that these mental skills, like the stuff beyond the physical, really matters. So- It's just as important. That, yeah. And that's when I like started realizing that connection, and then I became a teacher right away out of college and started coaching volleyball. Nice. And I was like, "Okay, these girls that I'm coaching, they also need this." Like, no one's- Yes still no one's teaching this to middle schoolers and high schoolers, but it's so important to their confidence and like how they show up. So I ended up like five years into my coaching career going back to school, get a certification in this, in how to teach mental training, and so I started teaching it to my team. And then I, uh, created an online program so that more- That's really cool could experience it. So that's where The Elite Mental Game was developed. We decided to create it in a, in a way that more people could access it. And, uh, we created an app, you know, like, all of this so that more people can, can learn these skills. Yes. And that's what I think is so amazing, because I feel like a lot of days now, people don't typically like to focus as much on the mental part of it. It's definitely becoming such a bigger thing, which is amazing. But I was curious how you stumbled upon it, and how you were like, "I'm gonna take the steps to create this and make it accessible for everybody." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, that passion comes from just seeing my own younger version of myself struggle with it, and realizing that it, we don't, we don't have to do that. There's skills. There's ways- Yes to help athletes with this. And I have a special place in my heart for girl athletes, being one of them, but also just the different- Yeah pressures that girls face in sports and in life in general, and how they're, and I'm sure we're gonna get into it a little bit, but, like, how they're kind of required to show up, and- Yeah it's a couple lot of different things. So that's another kind of angle that I found, you know, really important to in developing this. Yeah. That also, you almost just imitated one of my next questions, is like- what do you think are some unique pressures that athletes face compared to non-athletes in everyday life or on the field or during school? Anything. Yeah. It, I mean, it's the beauty and also the downside of sports is that it, it's public, right? So- Yes yeah, you are out there in front of your friends, your family, your strangers, you know- Yes and you are failing, uh, because you- Mm-hmm have to be. That's what sports are. You learn through trying and not being good. And, and there, I can't think of one sport where it's like you're just not on public display. Display. And so- Yes that, that's a level of vulnerability that most non-athletes don't face. Like, yeah, of course in school we mess up, make mistakes, don't do well on a test, but a lot of that can stay pretty private. You're not on display for everybody else. Yeah, exactly. Not always, at least. And so this is just like a daily occurrence for- Mm-hmm for athletes, and it's repeated. And a lot of times, and I think that's actually good, because they're just having to reckon with that right, you know, right away. But- Yes a lot of times they, you know, athletes can mix up and intertwine their failure or success with how they feel about themselves, and that's where things can get a little bit, m- we'll talk about that, I'm sure. But, but also I think- A girl athlete specifically, we're kind of, I don't know, beholden to some expectations- Yes that are put on us. So we are systematic- I guess it's a little bit of a contradiction to be, you know, you've gotta be aggressive but not too aggressive. You've gotta be a leader, but you don't, you can't be rude. But not bossy. And not bossy, yeah. They're just like, "You've gotta be competitive and likable," and it's just this like, what am I supposed to be? It's a lot. Yeah, so there's, it's like this tension I think that develops a lot with girl athletes, and then for athletes just in general as well, but I hear a lot from the girls in the program that there's a lot of comparison. You know? There's like- Oh, yes we're just constantly- I can speak to that, too. Absolutely, yeah. And you're like, "Well, she's, she's doing this. What's wrong with me? Why am I not doing that?" And so there's just a lot of things that athletes face. But, and, and it's not like a bad... A lot of these are really like good opportunities. Mm-hmm. There's also the whole, you've gotta physically work through demanding things. Mm-hmm. And you're, you're faced with this option, this voice in your head that's like, "Give up." There's just, all of that is happening as well, and then that's why we love sports. But also, without the tools- Yeah and that's why I, we, we give athletes mental training tools, is because if you don't have them, then that pressure and those hard times and that comparison, that just all like stacks up. And that's what can lead to the burnout that we see, girl athletes quitting sports at two times the rate of boys. Yeah. Sport, I mean, people in general. Like, not just girls, but most athletes. I think it's, the latest research was like 70% of athletes. 70% by 13. Yeah, exactly. That's crazy. So, I know. And a lot of it is because of, uh, things that we can help athletes with. Control, yeah. 'Cause we don't know how to help them up until most kind of recently with what to do with that voice in their head and when they're up against challenging times, so. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And that kind of takes me to my other, one of my other questions as well, is why is it hard for athletes to reach out for help when they are struggling- Mm-hmm Yeah, I think the, I mean, the most common is, I, if I can speak from my experience, was that I thought I was the only one who was- Mm-hmm struggling with something like this, which is why- I think that that's common. Yeah, yeah. You're like, "Well, there's, clearly everybody else has figured this out. Like, what's wrong with me?" When nobody has figured, it's in their own head that they're also struggling with it, which is why I love the community aspect to the Elite Mental Game. Our program is, what I hear a lot from athletes who come on our calls are like, "Oh, there's, hundreds and hundreds of other athletes out here." And it's not like they're struggling necessarily. They're actually experiencing the normal parts of being an athlete. Mm-hmm nerves, pressure, comparison. Yes. All of that's very normal, but because we don't talk about it, we don't think it's normal. So, athletes are like, "I'm here on an island by myself, and I've somehow just gotta figure this out." And- Yeah so I think that's part of it. Second, I don't think that it should be a situation where athletes have to get to a point where they need to reach out. I believe that athletes should have... It's just like a physical training skill, a mental training skill. And this isn't to the fault of any coach that might be listening to this, because most coaches aren't taught how to do this, or a parent that's listening. Parents clearly. Mm-hmm. I mean, we're not taught. We're not like, "Oh, here, here's also how you teach the mental side of sports." No one's really taught this, which is why our program exists for athletes, and then why we also give coaches resources on how to teach this with their team, too. Because I think it should just be as normal as physical training. We are gonna train- Yes our footwork, and then, before practice, what I do with my team, and what you do in the program, "Okay, we're gonna do three, two, one, break." Yes. So, you know, we're gonna write down our affirmations. We're gonna do a little bit of jour- journaling. We're gonna, one thing we're grateful for, one evidence. We're gonna do a quick visualization. It's just part of what we do, and that's what my teams do, and they're so used to it now. So I think it's tough because there's a lot of barriers to reaching out. What do you do as an athlete? Are you like- Yeah "Do I talk to my coach? They don't really-" I, you know, if they would've ne- if they- I feel like they wouldn't care, first of all. Yeah. It, "Oh, then they'll see me as, like, a different person than what I want," and that is, I think, where a lot of it comes from. Mm-hmm. But then, again, it's so important because a lot of the times those physical skills that you will learn, let's say, if you get in your head during a game, those just, those go out the window. You have to be able to apply the physical skills through, I guess, the mental aspect, so. Yeah. I mean, you said it perfectly. That's so true. You're like, "Are, how are they gonna view me after this?" Or if they knew how to help, they probably would've already been doing it. Exactly. So. I think a lot of times we think that people already see it, but they don't, so. Yeah. Yeah. So all that, and I think, so it's just too much of a barrier sometimes to- Yes figure out where, where to get help or how, how to... You don't wanna look like you're the weak one, like- Yes w- when in reality, this is literally what every athlete goes through. Goes through, yeah. And training mental game gives you actually competitive advantage. Like, we can talk about even from the other side of it that my teams wouldn't have won state four years in a row, and we're coming third at state even last year- Yeah if we didn't have the skills to handle the pressure at that level, so. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do you think that the parents and coaches that might be listening or watching this can create a more friendly environment or an environment where athletes or their kids feel safer to come up to them and tell them about this and ask for help? Yeah. I think it's a little bit easier probably for athletes that are, like, in our program like you, you know? Mm-hmm. Because the parents are the ones that typically find it, and so they're like- Yes introducing it to you, which is a little bit of a tough thing to, I don't know how you responded to it, but it's like, "Oh, this is actually something that would be helpful," because then it's like, oh, we already have this shared language. Parents go through their side of the program to learn how to be a better sports parent, so there's already some things that they're thinking about, hopefully, when it comes to that. And so there's just more of that. But if that doesn't exist, I think for parents that are listening, an important thing is that the more- The more you coach and critique and, like, just emphasize athletes' outward achievements, PRs, things like that. It's not that we wanna ignore those things, but the more that we just, ah, are all, all over it- The second- More- something goes wrong, it's all gonna... Uh-huh. That's, like, what the athletes tend to think, or at least what you hear, is that, okay, all of my praise, attention, everything we talk about is all centered around this, and now that puts a lot of pressure on themsel- on athletes because they're like, "Well, I have to perform this way." And a lot of performance is out of your control, and you play your best when you're not worried about the outcome and all of these other things that are out of your control. So, I think for parents, I think some of us have lost the plot a little bit on why- Yep they're in sports in the first place. Yeah. So let's get back to why do we invest so much time, money and effort into providing opportunities for kids? And usually it's because of the skills they develop outside of the sport, and that will carry on through their life. So a why, a bigger perspective, asking questions that are a lot more aligned to their effort, their goals, things like that, versus critiquing every little thing that they did wrong. I think that's a good starting place. And yeah, I mean, maybe Emily, you could probably speak to this, too. I'm like, you know, I think it'd be good to hear from your perspective on parents. Coaches, I think coaches, sometimes it's hard because we give a lot of messaging to athletes. I don't know how your coaches have been, but I used to always say, "It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to make aggressive errors." Yeah. I would say that, and that's the right thing to say. Mm. But then without giving them tools on how to actually do it, they're like, "Oh." It's overwhelming. You know what I... Yes. You know? And then they're like, "Okay, but I did it, and now I don't know how to not keep making mistakes," or spiral. Or coaches will say, "Shake it off. Next play," but that's what they're try- that's the end state. It's not- Mm-hmm a process to actually do it. Get there. Yeah. How do you shake it off? How do you move on to the next play? Exactly. Right? And now I'm getting pulled out because I made a bunch of errors, and now I'm feeling worse about myself. So I think for coaches, don't underestimate how powerful it can be to just give your kids some tools on how to actually navigate that. So I don't know, I think those are good places to start. But it would be good to hear from you, too, though. What's helpful for your parents? Yeah. I can share a little bit. It's- Yeah it, creating an environment, for me especially, feels really tricky with whether it's the coaches or parents. Mm-hmm. I think both of them can be, I think they should be kind of held separate. I've had- Yeah a couple people that I know where their parents try to go in, like, tandem with the coach and try to help one athlete, and I haven't heard great things about that. But I think kind of more on the parents' side of it, I think a lot of parents I know or my teammates' parents do a really good job with this, but it's- Not putting too much pressure, I guess, like on their physical skills, like you said. It's like- Mm-hmm "Hey, you did a really great job, like shooting, but I also noticed like how hard you hustled, like when you had to get back for the ball, and like how you were cheering for your team while you're on the sideline the entire time." And that I think is what, being, that being valued more over the physical skills I think creates a really good environments with like parents on like the sideline. Because- Mm-hmm I play lacrosse- Oh, yeah and I'm not sure about volleyball, but when there's parents on our sidelines, especially with some teams, it can get really loud and really aggressive towards the players as well. Mm-hmm. The parents try to tone it down a little, and that helps a lot as well. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's definitely, lacrosse, I think 'cause there's a lot more physicality in lacrosse, so it almost is- Yes like allows- The parents can get a little angry, especially 'cause I play defense and I've had a couple parents go, "Get off my kid," or something like that. Oh, really? 'Cause I'm trying to... 'Cause you have to push them. You have your stick and it's like- Mm-hmm not push, but you have to keep them out in a way, and so- Yeah that can get- Mm-hmm a little frustrating sometimes on the parents' end, but- Yeah. And that's embarrassing, too. It's- What about, what about coach, coaches? How, what, anything on- I have had a very wide spectrum of coaches, I think. I have had some that I really enjoy, like just fantastic, and then I've had some- Mm-hmm that I have had a ton of problems with. And I think the one thing that stands out for me at least is connecting with the athletes as a person, rather than just showing up to practice and saying, "Okay, great. Great job doing this and this." Mm-hmm. But maybe it's just before practice, like a, "How was your weekend?" Or like, "Are you doing anything fun after this?" Or, "How should we make more practice more fun, and how should we include everybody today?" And that is what I think makes coaches, I think, feel a little bit safer- Mm-hmm rather than, "Oh, let's just get straight to practice today." Yeah. Okay, yeah. That's for sure. And then that opens up the avenues for if there is an issue or, it just makes it easier to approach your coach- Yeah, to talk to them if there, if there's a little bit of a human connection there. Yes, exactly. I feel like oftentimes with coaches it can just get like really down to like the politics of it all. Mm-hmm. And it's okay, well, I see you as more of an object than a person. You have these skills and this is who you are. And I feel like oftentimes, sometimes we get overlooked as a person and- Yeah not just a true athlete and who we are and like all of the struggles that we probably inevitably will face, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's so important. Yeah. I know coaches are gonna listen to this and remember that this is what we need to make sure we prioritize. I mean, the most important thing- Yes really. I could go on and on about all of the great coaches I've had, so. That's good. And it's like you learn, you learn from everybody. Like we work with obviously a lot of athletes and they ask a lot of questions about coaching and how to interact with coaches, and, uh, coaches maybe that you don't have the same- I don't know, viewpoint on things, or not that that necessarily matters, but just, like, coaching styles that are all different. And- Yeah I tell athletes, "You can learn from everybody. You're never gonna have a perfect coach that you think is the best in every single way. But if you really look at it, you're gonna have a lot of coaches that will teach you a lot about the game, about yourself, no matter their coaching style," so. Yes. Mm-hmm. I think that one thing that I could offer up to other people if they want someone to talk to is I play club and for my school, and so there's this one coach at my school. She's fantastic, and she coaches our field hockey team at our school. And occasionally I'll go up to her with a question about lacrosse or need to talk to her- Mm-hmm for something about lacrosse, and she will be able to give me kind of an outsider answer that is She doesn't really know me a ton as a lacrosse player. She knows me as an athlete, which is really helpful. Yeah. But she's able to kind of give a second opinion, and that could also be, like, a great way if you need to help get some things figured out. You could go to- Mm-hmm maybe a different coach or someone at your school that could give a second opinion. Yeah. No, that is good, 'cause everybody has different perspectives, so that's great advice. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I- that's what I've- Mm-hmm found work for me. Mm-hmm. How do you... 'Cause you said you coach volleyball, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. How have you, I guess, seen, like, the mental side of the sport, like, affect athletes on your court or field or- Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's honestly what, like, prompted me to even go down this path of how do we teach- You got into it a little already, so. Yeah, but I didn't go into, like, actually what tip, like, the event that made this happen. Because you kinda, you move and make decisions when you're in pain and when you really want something. And I think I was at a place where both were happening because I was coaching really talented teams. Like, the high school that I coach at, we have wonderful families, wonderful athletes. And there were a couple of seasons in a row where we had stacked teams. 'Cause you kind of get in these cycles of, "Oh, wow, okay, we've got the, the talent in house right now." And both season, like, the first season, we were, like, supposed to go to state, which that always is tough when people are like, "Oh, you're expected to..." That's another level of pressure to, to add in. But we didn't even make it to state that year. We lost in a winner to state, loser out situation where we were up, we had the lead. In volleyball, it's called, when you lose in this way, where you win the first two sets, you have to win three out of five. And then we were up in the third and lost, and then the loss the next two sets. So we call that a reverse sweep. Oh. A sweep is when you win three in a row, and then w- a reverse- Okay means you lose three in a row. So we- Oh were reverse. Nice. Yeah. And it was, like, devastating. And after that season, I was like, "Okay, well maybe that was, like, a fluke. I don't know. We had, like, mostly returners, and, like, we'll be better next year." Mm-hmm. Um, and the next year, even with a lot of returners, so they were like, "Oh, they'll be even better," we get in the same situation, and we lost the same way. Like, we didn't make it to state, reverse sweep in the district game, winner to state, loser out. I seriously, I about... I couldn't sleep for a week. I was like, "What just happened?" It, it would be crazy. Yeah. I wouldn't be able to sleep. I know. I was like, I didn't even want to watch the film. I was, "How, this is like deja vu, not good deja vu." And so I was, like, at this point where I'm like, we have the talent, we train really well, the girls are committed. I wanna say, like, it's my fault, but I'm like, it was my fault. Like, as a coach, I'm like, I am, I need to look at my, where my gaps are in how I'm training. And the biggest piece is, like, we couldn't deal with pressure. We couldn't deal with when things went wrong in a game. We just fell apart, and I'm not training that well enough. And so, so yeah, that's what I saw. Like, with athletes who don't really have those skills, is that we fall apart under pressure. When anything goes wrong- We scramble and start bickering, uh, because we don't have the tools- Yeah to do anything different. And so that's why I went to, like, learn how to do, become certified- Yes so that I could teach these skills to my own team. And I was worried about how the girls might react to it. I was like- Yeah "Okay, this year we're doing something called mental training. All right, everybody, we're gonna close your eyes and visualize." And I'll say not everybody bought in. And this was about seven year- eight years ago. So I've been doing... Now, at this point, people are like, "Yep, this is what River Volleyball does. They do mental training." Yes. But when it first started, I definitely got some side eyes. And some people- Yeah. got like, when, when it was time to visualize, they wouldn't. They would just, like, keep their eyes open and look around. And I was like, "I'm just gonna stay the course because the research is very clear about this." And I'll say, like, 90% were, like, really invested in it. Focused. And I would do surveys 'cause I was, I really wanna get, like, feedback about do you find this helpful? And most of the surveys came back and were like, "Yes, this is the only moment in my day where I actually can take five minutes and get my mind right, like, and not-" Take a breath. Yeah. Yeah, like, literally, brief. And get your nervous system kind of re- realigned and you're not worried about school, the fight with my best friend that I just had, the, whatever's happening in the hallway. Like, I can just reset. So yeah, and now- Now they have the tools. It's not that we don't, that we're not perfect. All- we still make mistakes, we still lose games, we still, you know. Yeah. But athletes are bouncing back faster. They're not, like, tying their feelings about themselves to how they did, so then we can, like- Yeah get to training. Because that gets in the way if you're like, "Oh, I'm just such a terrible player," and that those are the thoughts that are going in your head. It's, okay, that's not helpful, and we've gotta figure out how- It's making it, like- Yeah. Yeah. We gotta fix your cir- It's making it harder to play. Yeah, exactly. This is making it harder for me to actually coach you. So yeah, I, it's not that we don't still have adversity and things aren't still hard on the court, and with our teammate dynamics and things like that. There's still plenty to work through, but we now have skills to be able to handle some of those moments better. Yeah. Yeah. I think going back to how you said it was a little awkward when it first started. Oh, yeah. When my mom approached me, I was like, "What are you talking about?" 'Cause I had never really been exposed to this side of it before, and I was like, "Okay, that actually sounds really cool." And I was more open to it, 'cause I looked at your program- Yeah I looked at your website, I was like- Oh, okay "This is amazing." And so- Mm-hmm I guess if I had to give advice to anybody who's listening today is that it really is important and it really can help. So- Mm-hmm, yeah I think it, while it may seem silly to some people, and athletes are kind of held to this exp- expectation to be really tough- Mm-hmm it's, the mental side is just as important, and I don't think that it makes you any more soft or any more emotional when you play a sport. It makes you actually tougher. It makes you mentally tough, which is just as important as, I think, physical toughness. Yeah. I think, yeah, you just, you said it perfectly because- It, yeah, if anything, it, it just makes you harder to compete with, you know? 'Cause you're, "Oh, you can't get me mentally." 'Cause you- I love, you know when you like play another team and you start to see somebody on the other team, like you can see- Getting frustrated. Yeah. They're in their own heads, and you're, "Okay, we're getting to them." If you've trained your mental game, you don't do that. You are mentally tough, you're locked in, and you're hard to, you're hard to beat. So- Yes I am curious, though, how did your mom talk about it to you? How did she introduce it? So it was after this really long summer of lacrosse, 'cause all, most of the lacrosse tournaments we go to are during the summer, right? Mm-hmm. And I had just been cut from this team, this really high-level team, this really competitive team. I had been cut, and then I had to go directly to this other tournament. It was this All-American lacrosse tournament that's like- Mm the top 20 players in Colorado, right? Mm. And so it was, "Okay, I'm a little confused. What..." 'Cause they're the same coach for both of the two programs. Oh. I was a little confused, like, "Why was I put on this team, but then you just kicked me off of this team?" I, that, I was getting in my head with that. I was- Yeah like, "Okay, well d- how does this, how she sees me as a person or as a player?" Mm. "What is it about?" And so I tried to have a couple of phone calls with her, and nothing really was clear. And so- Mm that, both of those tournaments kind of just destroyed me, right? Yeah. 'Cause I, but even before this, I had j- had a coach on that team that I'd been cut from who would play me for every game, every tournament, up until this one tournament at the end of the season, and this would happen every once in a while, where I would make one mistake, I'd get pulled out, and I'd sit the bench for the rest of the tournament. I think there was- Mm one tournament where I ended up playing six minutes maybe in- Wow the total of three days. Mm, okay. And so that was where we found our struggle, and I was like- Mm-hmm "Okay, this is not right. We need to do something to fix this." Mm-hmm. And I think it was, when was it? It was pretty recent, actually. I think it was maybe January of this year when she, I think, found your program and was like, "Okay, I found this. I haven't really heard a ton about this, but they seem to do a really good job." And she showed it to me. Mm-hmm. She was like, "Look at their website. Let me know if this is something that you think you're interested in. I think you should work on this regardless if this is something you wanna do or not." But I looked and I was like, "I think this would be a really fun way to work on it," because, like you said, I get to connect with other people, which I think- Yeah is super important, so. Yeah. Oh, that's great. And I love that you're open to, to just- Yes doing something different, too. I think some athletes are like, "Oh, no," like they're closed off, and- If you just like, okay, open your mind just a little bit and realize that actually college athletes are doing this, if college athletes and professional athletes are doing this, I think it's probably- It has to be important. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And here in Colorado, I'm not sure about where you are, I was just touring a bunch of high schools, 'cause I'm an eighth grader and I'm moving on to high school next year. Mm. And one huge thing in their athletics program, especially this one high school, was their mental training. They would bring in- Oh people from the University of Denver who are, like, trained psychologists in sports psychology, like it sounds like you were, and they would bring them in, I think it was twice every week, and they would talk about, like, how to handle pressure, like how to not negate yourself when you make a mistake. Mm. And that is something that I've found is really slowly becoming more popular. Even this high school I'm going to next year has a couple of specific mental health coaches just for every single team that they'll come and visit, and all of the s- like, athletes just say that they love it and that it's just amazing, so. Wow, that is so cool. That's really unheard of. Yeah. That's amazing. We have a great couple of schools here in Denver that do an amazing job with it. Yeah. Oh, that's so awesome that you get that opportunity, too. And that makes sense, I guess, like you're close to probably, like, some colleges there. Yeah. And yeah. Very cool. We have So in lacrosse, there's, we have DU and CU here, and those are some of the really top two teams. I think they were both in the top 20 this year. Mm-hmm. So. Yeah. That's amazing. Going back into, like, how, what can we do to help, I think, is what we haven't touched on a ton yet is- Mm-hmm like, what are the actual ways to keep your mental health steady, whether it's, like, on the field or during the day, I think. So I guess, what's an easy way for athletes to kind of recenter themselves and refocus themselves, especially after a long day of school where there may have been, like, tests or drama? Mm-hmm. How do they focus back in onto the, like, a sport? I think this might sound cliché, but- like, realizing that sports are supposed to be fun, and- Yeah you do it because the first time, and I'm not sure if you've gotten to this point in the program or if you, I know you've been in it for a while, but when we do the love of the sport visualization and, like, why you play. Because at some point you decided to pick up a lacrosse stick to, you know- Yes grab a volleyball. At some point you did that because it was fun. You're, you wouldn't, you wouldn't actually do it if it- If it wasn't fun. Yeah. It, yeah, it's just that's why you start, and we lose that feeling sometimes along the way because of all the pressures and all the things that are- Mm-hmm going on, and then we start to be like, "Oh." I know. Yeah, yeah. We're like, "I'm really maybe finding some success in here," and you're feeling good about yourself, and then you have a bad practice and you go, "Maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was," and now you're like- Yeah all up and down. And so I think getting back to that joy, and even if you want to even imagine, like, in that visualization we imagine the little girl at whatever age you started playing your sport just- Feeling- Having fun yeah, having fun, feeling the joy that of, of playing. And it slowly can become a job where there's a grind. And I'm not saying that it's not hard, especially as you continue to play at a high level. There's, it's tough, but at your core, this is something that you do because you enjoy it, and you're dedicating a lot of time to it because it's, it provides some sort of value and some joy to you. Mm-hmm. So I think remembering that, even if it is imagining that little girl just playing and finding the fun in your teammates, and in j- even in the drills that just seem kind of boring, like, "Hey, I get to move my body in this way, and express myself creatively and work hard," and y- Yeah there's so much to reconnecting to that joy. And then we've mentioned it a few times around not connecting how you feel about yourself to your performance. That doesn't mean that your performance and how you do doesn't matter, but I would shift to more of what's in my control when it comes to this. Because I can't always win everything. I mean, sometimes you can, but- there's, it's not all in your control. But what is in your control is I can show up to practice and I can give 100%. I can be really coachable. Yes. I can be a phenomenal teammate. I can... I want you to be a perfectionist about the process, not about the outcome. Yes, the result. Yeah. Be a perfectionist about, yeah, I'm going to get my platform angled to target every single time. I'm going to be a perfectionist about that because that matters to the result, but that's something I can control. And so- Yeah especially to my athletes who do struggle with perfectionism like I do, I always tell them like, "Be a perfectionist, but just make sure it's about the process and not the outcome." So- What's coming out of it, yeah. Yeah, I would say those are good things to start with. Yeah. I think one thing that I also heard somewhere in the program, I'm, I can't pinpoint exactly where, but it's that people oftentimes, I hear them asked to be good at scoring or good at midfield or they want to be faster. And one thing I heard that has really stuck with me is that you can work for the opportunity to be faster. You can work for the opportunity to be, like a better scorer, and all of that, and I think it's just as important. I think the process of getting there is much more important than the result you get from it. Yes. I mean, it truly is. Like Miley Cyrus says, "It's about the climb." It's about the climb. Yep. Heard that a few too many times recently with- I know. Oh, yeah graduation coming up. Right. Yeah, you're close to grad. That's a common graduation anthem. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think one other thing I kind of want to touch on is how can athletes take care of their, I guess, I'm kind of separating into two categories. So we talked about all the mental side of sports, but then more like the social and mental side. How can making sure that you are physically healthy and mentally healthy just on a day-to-day basis can, how can that really help with your performance in sports and with your performance in school? More of just a general question. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna take it in a little bit of a, maybe a little different direction. But when- Feel free. Yeah, when somebody's mentally healthy, that essentially to me means, in, in research, means that you are able to navigate your life's ups and downs and challenges and relationships, without it absolutely crushing you. You're, you're able... It doesn't mean you're going to be, like, happy and joyful all the time, but, like, you, you can navigate, you can manage. Things can happen and you're like, "Okay." You have the mental capacity, and I will say strength, I guess, to be like, "Yeah, all right, this might not be exactly what I wanted to have happen, but here are the tools. Here are the people in my corner who I can go to for support." Yep. Like, that type of mindset. And- Mm-hmm the other thing about sports and academics can be very demanding mentally and physically, and we do need to add some white space in if it's not already there. And what I mean by that is play. Like, not where, where something's not scheduled all the time and so structured. And I even would say all the way through college, like, athletes, we need to recognize that you are like a piece of pie, or a whole pie, and a piece of that pie is your sport, and piece of that pie is academics, and a piece of that pie is, like, your, a, a daughter and a sister and a friend. There's a lot of different pieces to you, and sometimes we think that the whole pie is athletics or academics, and, like, what pieces of those are things that are also life-giving to you? We had this conversation with an athlete in the program recently. She's a swimmer, and we were talking about, who are you outside of your sport? Not just what you enjoy, but what else do you, what else do you do? What... And she was, "I actually really love jewelry-making. That is a thing that I love." Yep. "I haven't done it a whole lot." And so she got back into jewelry-making, ended up starting a business with her other swimmer friend to make this jewelry that's waterproof. And- That's amazing. Yeah, and it's one of the first gifts that athletes get in the program when they finish their snack pack routine. They can fill out a form and get one of these bracelets, 'cause we're, "This is so cool. You made your own company." Yeah. And so we connected her and she, like, now all the athletes get a bracelet. And I'm like, that is so awesome, 'cause it's, like, also feeding a different part of you. Yeah. And when you can be creative, when you have, when I say that white space, you're playing, you're doing other stuff, there's different stuff going on in your brain. Like, not to go too deep- Yes neuroscience on what that is, but it allows you to be more creative, and you'll pull that into your sport, and that comes in handy when you are playing and you've gotta have some strategy involved in what you're doing. Your creative brain is so useful in that. Same with academics. So, I just think athletes, your sport is what you do. It's not who you are. It's a very important part of your life. Yes. But it's not all of you. I've heard a lot of people that I play with and just even go to school with are like, "Oh, well, my sport is like all of me. If I don't do well in this, then it's like I'm not a great person." I'm like, "Yeah, but you are so much more than just a swimmer or just a volleyball player." Mm-hmm. And so I think that's really important. Yeah. Do you have any questions specifically for me for any of the coaches or parents, if you want- Oh, yeah a different perspective? Yeah, I love this dual interview situation. It is so fun. It worked very well for me. Yeah. I would love to hear just a little bit about your experience in the program. I know it's been a little bit, but anything that stood out to you that especially- useful or how it's helped you in your sport? One thing that I think has really stood out, again, I haven't been in for very long, so I can't say for the entire program. But one thing that- Yeah I think is really beneficial was, this was early on in the program, was the, your snapback routine. Mm-hmm. And having that and learning that has been really useful for me. I use it on a daily basis, even if it's for something just not as important. I was just at our recreational lacrosse championships, so it was a bigger event and, but I was like, "Okay, I'm starting to get a little stressed," because these are the championships. I want to win. This is our last year. Mm-hmm. But then I did my snapback routine and I was like, "Okay, I'm focused, I'm able to play, and I'm able to have fun now." And I think that really helps. Because in the snapback routine, you're told to think of a memory where you thought, where you felt really strong, where you were having fun- Mm-hmm and all of these other attributes to that moment. And I think of this one moment where I'm playing field hockey. It's not even lacrosse, but that moment, again, brings back so much joy as to like why I do play these sports, and that really helps get me in the head space, I guess, to why I want to be here, I think. Oftentimes, if I get a little flustered, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, why am I even doing this? It doesn't make sense," and I get all caught up in this. But then my snapback routine really kind of just brings it back. And so I think that was one really amazing thing that I've learned from this. But then the overall experience in the program, which I think is what you asked about, is amazing, is the one word I have to give for it. Aw. Because I, every Sunday you do these, like, live streams, and I'll log in on my Zoom, and I'll get to hear these younger athletes' perspective and these older athletes' perspective, and it really, I guess it makes me feel like I'm not alone. And it's, it's a true community. I feel very supported. Aw. So. Oh my gosh, I love hearing that. Thank you. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. No, of course. Yeah. Yeah. This is great. So, I hope coaches that are listening, athletes, parents, I mean, there's a little bit of everything for everybody in this one. So. Yes. Yeah. I think so. We went all over the place, but- Cool. Well, thank you, Emily. Yeah, thank you. Is there any other questions for me that you need to know or want to know? I don't really think so. I think we covered a lot of it. But I think just being able to interview you and getting another person's perspective on, again, why mental health in sports is just as important as, say, physical health. Yeah. That's right. We'll end with that.